Hands to Ponder

13 08 2008

A couple of interesting hands …

Hand 1:

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:

UTG   ($52.98)  
Hero   ($95.55)  
CO   ($158.85)  
BTN   ($118.45)  
SB   ($95.44)  
BB   ($210.20)  

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, SB calls $3, 1 fold

Pretty standard raise preflop obviously.

Flop: ($8, 2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $8

I like my raise here.  I mean, villain is repping an incredibly small range here, and I think the bulk of the time, I can get a fold from hands like 66-99 and maybe even weak to marginal tens.  When he calls, I am almost certain he has some form of made hand.  I don’t recall having any real reads on villain at the time of the hand.

Turn: ($32, 2 players)
SB bets $32, Hero ???

He pretty much instantly donks for pot here on the turn.  I obviously made a good hand.  I doubt that villain instaly does anything with a set, so I think villain should have something like AT, A5, 34, or complete air.  What is your play here and why and what is your play on the river?

Hand 2:

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:

UTG   ($65.95)  
UTG+1   ($193.30)  
CO   ($83.20)  
BTN   ($33.25)  
Hero   ($107.98)  
BB   ($171.85)  

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is SB

UTG calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, BTN calls $1, Hero calls $0.50, BB checks

Super standard.

Flop: ($5, 5 players)
Hero bets $4, BB raises to $12, 2 folds, BTN raises to $32.25, Hero ???

I think basically the thoughts behind the hand here really rely on what the BB has, as he has me covered and button is too short to really gives two shits as to what he has.  Villain in question is BB and is a TAG reg.  I think he can certainly do this with J8 and 86.  Will he try to raise TT or 99 to isolate preflop?  I am not sure.  Will he make his raise on the flop with Asxx?  I think he might do that, especially if x is 8.  The only hands, based on the math of the situation I think, that have me concerned are oversets.  I am betting into 4 people here on the flop, he has to think I am strong and is still willing to raise.  I think his range can be basically as follows:  Asxx, made flush, TT, 99, J8, and 86.  I think against this range, I would have the odds to get it in against him.  I am not quite sure though.  What is your play here and why?  This happened during my sweat and really put me in an awkward spot.

Oh yeah, roughly 5 miles on the bike today, I love it, it felt GREAT to get back out there and ride.  This is gonna be good for me fo sho!  No pokers tomorrow.  Mandatory self imposed time away from poker to A) keep me fresh at the tables and B) keep things in persepctive.  I think that will help out tons for when I am at the tables.


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8 responses

13 08 2008
Baz

1st hand…

I like your flop-raise, pity there’s no toooo much out there to rep. I’d still raise it up though. Would make it $14 rather than $12. $10 seems like a lot more than $8 to call.

Man his turn lead hurts. I’d be fearing A2/A5 here a lot, but you’re read that he insta-donks is interesting… makes A2/A5 much more unlikely as he’d have to think about them as the turn changes his hand strength. I dunno how much he flats with them in the SB anyways. If he insta bets then he was probably going to bet regardless of the turn card.

Flopped 2pr hands are pretty much imposs too, and I don’t think 34 is that likely. So it’s set, PP, or air imo. I don’t really get why he’d be turning a middle pair into a bluff here. But then again why would he just mash pot with a set, wierd.

I’d call for sure.

2nd hand…

I don’t think we can shove… as I doubt we’d get it in against many hands we beat? Flatting kind of sucks too as there are so many cards that shaft our hand even more.

Fold bottom set here?

13 08 2008
Zanchetta

Hand 1:
If you call the turn he’ll shove the river for sure and then you can’t fold because of the odds.
Everything you fold by shoving the turn is a bluff, so in this case I’d prefer to call and let him bluff the river.
Against a good player I would fold as you have not invested too much.

13 08 2008
Zanchetta

Hand 2:
I would not bother about another set as the BB would have raised this preflop (except he is something like 18/5).

It is more likely he has a monster draw or a made flush / straight or 2 pair.

Same is true for the SS.

In this type of limped 5 way pot it’s very likely one of the two has you beat and you can’t afford to let the BB draw. So you could only shove and get called only by a better hand.

Even your outs for the boat may not be good as a 2pair will make a higher boat.

Whatever you do it’s quite likely you loose. So folding is not so bad.

13 08 2008
AppleSeed

Hand 1. I agree with Zanchetta. It’s either a fold or call turn and river because if you shove the turn, he’ll fold all his bluffing hands.

Against a good solid player, I fold because you have shown tremendous strength preflop and on the flop.
Villain def likes his hand and is going all the way with it.

Hand 2. I like the lead when u flop a set on a 3 flush flop. Once BB raises and BTN shoves, I just fold. It’s a limp pot and you haven’t invested much in it.

Another way to play it, if you don’t want to fold to heat OOP. C/C the flop and lead a safe turn card.

13 08 2008
Marc (Disconnected)

Hand 1: His range is pretty polarized, and without knowing anything about him, I don’t give him credit for 34, and would discount trashy aces. AT is a possibility. Everything else is just a bluff, but not one that I think he continues on the river. I hate to call the turn/fold the river in general, but I believe I would take that line if he bets big on the river.

Hand 2: Wow, what a spot. I don’t like any option, but the one that I hate the least is folding. AS Appleseed says, you haven’t put much in, and even if you improve, you may lose, and it will be a decision OOP for your stack.

14 08 2008
Zanchetta

Hand 1 is a lot about at which level he is thinking. I wonder if you could make a decision based on his winrate if you had meaning full stats, like this:

Level 0 – I’ve got a powerfull hand, let’s bet big (fish, winrate < 0, not likely at 100NL)

Level 1 –
He’s raised the flop, so he could have a TPTK or OP and be willing to call / raise big bets. Let’s try to get it in by the river. (solid winrate – likely)

Level 2 – He’s raised the flop, so he could have an TPTK or OP and be willing to call / raise big bets. He expects me to bet less than pot if I can beat him so let’s look bluffy and get it in.

(high winrate)

Level 3 –
If I want to get it in he expects me to bet pot in order to look bluffy. He will not expect me to make this play on him. (good winrate, FPS imo – not very likely)

Of course you don’t want to be bluffed off TPSK. But if he bluffs what is he representing on the turn with that bet? Not an A as he could not represent this on the flop. AA would valuebet less, Tx, JJ to KK would slow down and would have 3bet preflop.

Very tough spot and as it is possible that you make a big mistake here and he is unknown it’s not too bad to avoid this situation and wait for a better one. If it turns out he is such a simple minded bluffer you can milk him in later obits.

14 08 2008
btimm

Zanchetta: I would be careful about judging players on their winrate, you almost never have a large enough sample size to really justify anything. Honestly, I have had stretches where you could have 10k hands on me and I look like a 15 PTBB/100 winner and have had 10k stretches where I look like a -10 PTBB/100 loser.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. after thinking about it more and more, I think hand 2 is a fold. It just is brutally difficult to do. Alas, I did not fold. I called to let BB either fold or shove and BB had the nut straight and SB had an OESD and FD. Here is the big thing here. If I was BB with a NFD or even a NFD and pair, I would flat the flop as I want people in if I hit. If I hit the flush and someone else is holding the K high flush, I am going to get paid off, where that person may fold if I raise. So I doubt BB has many draws in his range. I think made straight, oversets, and 2 pair. I think this is a fold. Note that I don’t give a rat’s ass abouit the button.

Hand 1 still perplexes me. If you call the turn, you have to call the river, it is less than a 1/2 pot-sized bet. Shoving is bad, it folds out worse (Bad players can fold when they should be committed). I called the turn and then river and villain had AT for top two pair. I still don’t know if I like my play or dislike it. He just can’t be repping much like ever when he takes that line. It almost loks like he just mashed pot right when he saw the ace, to try to get me to fold my hand, as it should scare me if I hold like KK or QQ, which I certainly take that flop line with those hands. I am not sure still what to think on this hand.

14 08 2008
Zanchetta

So looks like he was level 2 and incredibly fast reacting. Your absolutely right about the winrate.

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